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Talk:Chara/@comment-4015220-20180519220127/@comment-32182236-20180606010043
"Why would Chara want that though? They had enough power when merged with Asriel's soul. Unless you mean Chara wanted to keep getting stronger and stronger afterwards, but there would be no point to doing that. The point of the plan was for Chara to get revenge on the human's on the surface, I doubt getting souls for more power was even a part of the plan. Chasriel had more than enough power to destroy everyone in the village. I think a megalomaniac would want more power, but Chara Isn't a megalomaniac, they're a revenge thirsty nutjob." First:Chara had to make Asriel think they were freeing the monsters. Maybe they were indeed trying to do this. Second:One soul is enough to destroy everyone in the VILLAGE, but they didn't just want to eradicate the whole village. They wanted to eradicate the entire planet. Third.. maybe they are part-megalomaniac? "HP. ATK. DEF. GOLD. EXP. LOVE. When a number goes up, that feeling.. That's me."-Chara "That is true." Hence Chara's plan of having Asriel do the absorbing, so they actually CAN do that. "They didn't know Asriel had any control at all in that form. I doubt they did since they were the one that did practically everything, all Asriel did was hold them back." Did you read my proof that they DID know? "In genocide they're evil to the core. Pacifist however, is another story." Pacifist is what this discussion is mainly about. Let's just say my statement was talking about Geno!Chara, so that we can both understand what I was saying. "Maybe at first, but then when they picked up the body and literally did everything else with them in control. They would think that because Chara WAS in full control until Asriel pulled the surprise hold back. That quote can be taken another way, it doesn't change the fact that their souls were together and that meant they would still be doing it together even if Asriel didn't plan on doing anything by actually moving the body." You're saying Chara LOST information that they already KNEW was a fact? Science never progresses backwards-What Chara already knew remains a fact. They likely took Asriel doing nothing as consent to let Chara do this:Which might further explain why THEY were the ones that attacked:They thought Asriel was fine with it, AND they didn't want to risk Asriel backing out. ...He did so anyway. "What else could they be? We covered that they aren't good when they first fell and they aren't pure evil either." I was hoping you weren't going to say something like "neutral good" or even "true neutral". "But if they assumed they had control they wouldn't need to." My point is they didn't. Which means they WOULD need to. Let's get back to this point once we determine whether Chara assumed they had full control or not, because otherwise we'll just be contradicting each other without providing evidence-If they knew, my point is correct, and if they didn't, then yours is. "What do you mean? They remember true resets after genocide because they have Frisk's soul. Also by soulles pacifist they are definitely evil, remember, genocide Chara supported killing everyone. I added a point to the split control thing." I used Soulless Pacifist as evidence for them remembering:When I said they turned evil again, I meant after a True Reset, period:They return to their state from the start of the game, when they should remain good, considering that they remember turning good-I don't see why Frisk doing a True Reset should make them turn evil again, when we consider that they didn't just forget the True Pacifist run. "I doubt that was the case because Chara didn't ask for an "okay" in the first place. They just attacked. It did completely fail either way." You think they were going to take no for an answer? Of course not! It's just having Asriel be willing to do it eliminates the risk of Asriel fighting back, and causing them to die. If Chara knew Asriel could fight back, they'd take this important piece into consideration. Which is exactly what I'm arguing they did. Manipulating the variables to minimize the odds of Asriel betraying the plan, by making fighting the only option besides death itself:This was the reasoning behind Chara rallying up the villagers. "Chara used their dead body to rally up the village and then they automatically attacked. It's honestly just as possible that they were doing what they did to get the attention of the whole village so they could take them out in one sweep. But back to the original point, if Chara was trying to corner Asriel there would be no reason to attack, Asriel would be the one attacking. Asriel didn't even mention that Chara was backed into a corner he just mentioned that Chara wanted to use their full power." Chara wasn't backed into a corner, Asriel was. Chara was the one DOING the backing. Not killing the humans counts as a failure for Chara-They had nothing to lose from their perspective. Also, about your alternative, I'm arguing it was for both reasons:Chara had other ways to attack the village, but this was the best way to do it to migitate the risk of Asriel backing out. Also, Chara would consider the possibility that Asriel just couldn't live to do it himself, and would want Chara to do it FOR him. Not only that, there's the reason that I mentioned above:Asriel doing nothing might have been taken as consent, or even a request, for Chara to be the one doing this, rather than Asriel. "In life and death? They obviously wanted revenge, power was just a way for them to get that revenge. They weren't killing just so they could be powerful and feel powerful they were killing so they could get stronger and defeat the enemy. It wasn't an obsession with power, just an obsession with revenge." That still qualifies for my interpretation of Chara's speech:They were reincarnated for power:This power would be used to eradicate the enemy, and then destroy this pointless world, to move onto the next. Frisk still had NOTHING to do with it. "Yeah, so revenge. Not an actual power obsession where they just wanted power because they had the option to gain it. Also you're saying that since they didn't need Asriel's trust they would be able to reveal their true nature? Well I don't think that's the case. If that were the case then you would be saying they were evil in life too. But the whole idea of revenge against monster's came up because Asriel betrayed them." Those were two conflicting views, that I presented as two separate possibilities. The first is the revenge plot we're both talking about:Revenge against monsters because of Asriel. The latter does indeed propose that Chara was evil in life. Neither of them has been proven wrong, so they both stand, and they BOTH explain their actions in life, alongside with the Genocide speech. When there are two very reasonable explanations for something, I don't really pick just one of them. "That wouldn't matter because they want revenge remember? Human or not, Frisk would just be a means to an end." It seems we have a misunderstanding. I thought you were still going with the point that Frisk guided Chara to genocide:As you said two of your posts ago that it was FRISK who guided Chara to kill monsters. Yes, Chara DID keep Frisk along because their killing would give them power. But Frisk did not GUIDE Chara to this conclusion:They found out their purpose BEFORE then. Frisk just ended up being a worthy partner-Much better than Asriel who refused to kill a single person of either race ever! I was arguing that if Frisk was doing this, and that was teaching Chara to hate monsters, implying they DIDN'T want revenge against the monsters until Frisk showed them so, then Chara had no reason to trust this "evil" human that the "good" monsters were in fact the bad guys-They'd just see Frisk killing innocent monsters, and thus, that Frisk is the bad guy. I hope I cleared things up, and I'm glad you didn't mean what I thought you did. "Because of exactly what you said. It wasn't their main goal, the point of the plan was to get revenge, not get as strong as possible for fun. They could pass it up because if they have enough power already, it's not even needed. It's most likely a mix of that because they hate both of them." What would be the point in passing it up? More power makes killing the rest of them even easier. Also, they kind of need enough power to destroy the entire planet.. (aside from the underground).. You think Chara only hated that one village? No, they hated ALL of humanity:Everywhere on Earth! "That's on a completely different route." Still shows Flowey can't just tell the difference between Frisk and Chara like that. Of course, they don't think we're Chara in Pacifist, but they don't even think Chara is THERE until they turn into Asriel. And after the battle, Asriel says that Chara's been gone for a long time.. Even though they're right there! It's clear Asriel can't actually tell the difference between the two:He didn't even know there WERE two! So.. To say Flowey, after learning of Chara's existence as the narrator, was then able to deduce exactly what actions were of Frisk and which actions were of Chara is ludicrous, as there is no visible difference between the two. "Yeah, so he could tell the difference when Frisk first showed up and even as Flowey. You could say that but he definitely did know the difference between the two from the start and only went "YOU'RE CHARA!" when he became Asriel in pacifist. Then he could feel Chara there afterwards but he still knew that they were two different people." No, back then, he didn't think Chara was alive, period. Even Chara's actions would be seen as Frisk's actions. This is evidenced by the Genocide Route, where in his speech, he states that he tried to "take your SOUL", all while addressing Chara-On how he didn't know it was Chara. This wasn't Chara at all, though-It was Frisk. This makes it very clear that Flowey cannot distinguish the two. He thinks there is only ONE human there, all the way to the very end. (He does learn of the narrator's existence in that speech:We know this due to him speaking about someone watching it all happening, but being too scared to do it themselves:This was referring to the narrator, whom Flowey thought was NOT Chara.. But it turned out he got the roles swapped. So.. He ended up calling Chara a sicko. Wow, Flowey. Bet that just made their relationship even worse.) "Probably exactly what you said, he could truly feel them there when he became Asriel. Hearing the narrator only really applies to certain characters. Asriel could have heard them, but you'd think he would bring it up." ..Why does it apply to Tsunderplane, of all monsters, but not Flowsriel? Flowey probably thought the narrator's words were also Frisk's words:There's a difference between hearing the narrator and knowing the narrator isn't the same as Frisk. "Frisk has a mental-link with Chara either way. How do we know Flowey was with Frisk?" Chara being able to share memories doesn't mean that Frisk sees what Chara sees:In fact, they DON'T, as Chara notices a monster encounter just before it happens.. Frisk only sees the monster when the encounter begins. Chara's also the one to point out that there's a blue switch behind the pillar, and narrates Toriel's silence when she's behind the pillar, despite the fact that we had NO idea that she was there-Neither did Frisk, seeing how Frisk and the player are one and the same. (And because come on, how could you notice someone because they're silent?) "I'm pretty sure Flowey could have left at any point in time though, he didn't have a monster or human soul. The only reason he stayed underground specifically was because he wanted to mess around with his reset powers. Also what says Chara still wouldn't like Asriel? They never do anything in pacifist that would make us suggest they still don't. No idea, but a lot of things go unexplained in Undertale(Chara being attached to Frisk in the first place.). Also the narration in the epilogue happens before they leave anyway, right?" "Anything can enter though the seal, but only beings with a powerful SOUL can leave."-Waterfall glyphs ...Yeah.. He couldn't have. Having no SOUL means you don't have a powerful SOUL. Flowey's Genocide Speech shows that he was trying to get Asgore to show the human SOULs to him, and failed every time.. But.. why? So Flowey could absorb them, of course! Also, they don't still like Asriel, because.. what changed since then? Why do you propose that they changed their mind? What caused the shift, and why? Without evidence, Occam's Razor is the best approach:Chara stayed the way they were, because nothing suggests otherwise. And yes, the narration in the epilogue happens before they leave. The seal was broken before then. So, you argue the link was broken.. Because they went to the Surface? There was no barrier for them to pass through:Reaching the Surface is nothing special. There is no plausible reason why reaching the Surface should suddenly make Chara able to move on their own, separate from Frisk. "Fighting against Flowey and attempting to free the monsters is fighting against the reset ability in the first place right? Well Chara helps you by narrating for you." ...I suppose. Let's go back to my earlier point then:About how Chara was SPECIFICALLY fighting against ASRIEL resetting, rather than resetting in general. "Nice, I also don't believe in the existence of a separate entity "player" as an actual character in Undertale. People try to use Chara talking to Frisk as evidence for it, but nothing suggests Chara's speech switched from Frisk to the player. Since Frisk is still alive and everything, and a player has never been referenced beforehand, why would it?" Exactly. While the speech does suggest that Chara is talking to the player, if Frisk IS the player.. It still holds. Why can't this just mean Frisk IS the player? They canonically can SAVE, all the stats are canon.. Flowey even acted very player-like when he played around with the reset ability.. So why is Frisk any different? Chara was talking to the player.. Because Frisk IS the player. They're one and the same. It's a lot simpler than arguing that Chara is bouncing between two separate entities. I don't see why fourth wall breaks are used as evidence of a separate player. It only proves there is a player, and nothing more. Nothing says that player can't be Frisk. And Flowey basically being the player at one point just further supports that. "Hold on a second, it seems more likely that Chara misunderstood the situation from what you're saying. The fact of the matter is that the first time you encounter Froggit he does send ATTACKS at you and they can kill you if you aren't careful enough." Chara said that Froggit attacked you BEFORE he actually sent attacks. Our turn is before Froggit's, remember? Humans almost always have initiative of battle:This probably is a huge reason why not a single human was killed:They always got the first move. Froggit didn't attack yet, so Chara had no reason to say that he DID attack. He didn't. He hasn't even used up his turn yet. "Also, it even changes after you fight him once, which proves that Chara most likely thought Froggit was actually trying to attack Frisk, then proceeded to change their thoughts once they realized the Froggit could understand Frisk and wasn't trying to kill them(since monster's express themselves with attacks or something like that). Plus let's be fair here, why would Chara attempt to trick Frisk once in the whole entire route and then never try to trick them ever again if they really were trying to back Frisk into a corner?" Perhaps they were testing Frisk, to see how far they were willing to go? To see whether or not Frisk would do an Asriel when they saw that the monsters were peaceful, like, say, Papyrus? Perhaps they thought that when Frisk LVd up (Your LOVE does increase to 2 from killing the Froggit), that would start to take them over? "How are they a threat? They can't reset or anything and they don't even attempt to persuade Frisk into resetting at any point in time." Manipulating Frisk? ...Alright, I guess not much. Though, the fact that Flowey sees that Chara IS a threat, means that if Chara DID have the power, they likely WOULD be a threat. Why? Because they want to reset, of course! After all, Flowey didn't know that it was Frisk who had the power:They thought it was Chara. "I think the most likely situation is that they were just trying to help Frisk. You can still check like normal in their fight and Chara never makes any attempt to change Frisk's opinion on not resetting. Not to mention they still narrate for you." A:Chara didn't know what your opinion was B:Back in the Asriel fight, Frisk's opinion didn't matter. Asriel resetting would be bad for both sides, as I explained. C:They don't narrate at all in the speech, so.. They shifted their stance a bit then. The last time the do narrate is the epilogue, and even then, the option of resetting wasn't mentioned at all. Perhaps they thought Frisk would be like Flowey, in this case? Resetting for the fun of it? Chara wanted to help Frisk.. because that would help themselves. Nothing indicated that their stance has changed in the Pacifist Route. "If that's the case Chara would automatically fall under that umbrella because they are the narrator and help Frisk by explaining stuff. You can check and Chara will still give you a read on the situation." Indeed, my stance has changed a bit:Chara DOES actually, genuinely want Asriel to not reset, and they DID play a role there. But stopping Asriel from resetting doesn't mean they didn't want to reset, period:As I explained above, making the reset themselves rather than Asriel would be most beneficial to the plan. "No it doesn't, because Flowey is just making an assumption. Not only that but Chara doesn't even have the ability to reset." We, as Frisk, showed no intention to reset, so we can't say Flowey saw Frisk intend to do it and then think it was Chara.. So, what made Flowey think Chara wanted to reset? "That's what Flowey THINKS, but that doesn't make what he thinks true. How does it even count as evidence when his response is flawed from the start? Chara can't even reset in the first place." That flaw was only due to the fact that Flowey still couldn't tell what was Frisk, and what was Chara. But, since Frisk had no intention of resetting, we can't say that spilled over to his interpretation of Chara. "You may ask "Why would Flowey have such a negative opinion of Chara?" Well, because he realized Chara wasn't the greatest person. He knew they were not a very good person when alive and assumed they were still not a very good person in death." They felt Chara, first-hand, and wanted them back. They clearly seemed to think Chara became good, and yet, in the end, when they DID see Chara wasn't the greatest person.. They attributed all the goodness to Frisk, as they thought Chara was gone. Once they realized Chara WAS still there.. And mentioned that Chara was fighting to stop the resets.. Things may have appeared to chance. Also, his assumption seems to be correct:There is no indication that they were a good person in death. I'm with Flowey on this one.. Except it's Frisk's choice.